Can Georgia reform education by diminishing status, salaries of teachers?

Former Pelham City Schools Superintendent Jim Arnold writes about the new Education Reform Commission created by the governor to address, among other things, the Georgia school funding formula.

A longer version of this post appears on Arnold’s blog.

By Jim Arnold

I will admit I was more than a little skeptical when I learned about the group appointed by Gov. Nathan Deal to investigate the possibility of updating the decades old formula used to fund education in Georgia.

It wasn’t necessarily the membership that made me suspicious, but the motives behind such an effort. Gov. Deal has shown himself on more than one occasion to be a supporter of the privatization of public education and one who believes charter schools will provide a magical answer to the effects of poverty on learning and public schools and public school teachers must be the both the problem and the enemy because every student in public education does not succeed at high educational levels.

Career politicians like the governor seem to have developed a sincere belief that quick fixes and silver bullets will solve educational issues and, if only teachers could once again do more with less, they could overcome the problems created by poverty, society, single parent homes, hunger, unemployment, the economy and rural isolation.

Barrie Maguire NewsArt

Barrie Maguire NewsArt

The real reason behind the “study” became evident last week when Erin Hames, who oversees education policy for Deal, said if the group doesn’t recommend doing away with paying teachers for training and experience, then “I’m not sure that we’re going to change anything about the way business is done.” She also said research is “pretty clear” teachers with advanced degrees do no better in the classroom.

I was surprised to hear that. Not surprised to hear about the desire to find what amounts to a gigantic teacher pay cut but to discover that research, however deceptive, played a part in any educational decisions made politically in Georgia. On the face of things, it would seem that experience and advanced academic study in almost any profession you might name would be desirable for employees and those who employ them.

Quick — make a decision — you have a choice of third-grader teachers for your child.  You can have the new one fresh out of college or you can have the one who has been teaching for 12 years and who your neighbor’s kid loved. Would you choose the new one still finding her way through the maze of new teacher mania and discovering what works through trial and error, or the one with a clear idea of what she expects, how she handles behavioral issues, how she assesses students and their progress and her network of professional contacts to help her solve any problems or issues that might arise?  Seems like an easy one to answer, doesn’t it?

For that matter, how many politicians cite their own political experience in seeking re-election?  I haven’t seen much research on whether it makes them more effective politicians but incumbency does seem to have its own set of political privileges.

Surely teaching experience and advanced education count for something?

The research in question does, indeed, suggest teacher training, including in-service training, undergraduate training and advanced degrees, play little or no part in improving student achievement as measured by standardized achievement tests. Value-added statistical models also show teacher training and experience have little or no effect on student achievement scores on standardized tests, so on the face of things it might be reasonable to assume experience and educational attainment make little difference in student learning.

Looking further, however, shows us extensive additional research indicates even the most effective teachers account for only 1- 15 percent of student improvement on standardized tests in any given school year. There are additional issues with the assumption student learning is accurately measured by standardized testing and that eight hours of teaching can overcome the influences of life, society, parents, poverty or television for the other 16 hours.

Over a week’s time, for example, students spend about 40 hours at school and about 80 hours at home or other places not counting weekends. Over the course of a 9 month school year (assuming there are no furlough days in effect) that would mean 1440 hours in school and around 2880 hours at home, again not counting weekends. That is a rather large chunk of student time teachers don’t have to teach, which hasn’t been part of the responsibility discussion.

Advanced degrees for teachers also seem to have little effect on student scores on standardized tests. I would suggest this is just another indicator that what those tests measure is not student learning but test-taking strategies. Teachers and administrators would never make the mistake of believing authentic student learning is measured by standardized testing. Neither should you.

What does, however, invariably affect student standardized test scores is the economic status of the parents. Students from more affluent families score higher at every grade level and with every imaginable test than students from poor families. Conversely, research has also shown the only accurate predictors of student success in college are the grades provided by high school teachers.

Think that over for a moment. Not the SAT, the ACT, the EOCT, the CRCT, the Georgia Milestones…not even Pearson… but teacher grades that students earn in high school. So it would seem, in spite of the “blame teachers for everything wrong” movement, the vast majority of teachers do conscientiously administer grades and employ defendable grading methods.

Just as there are some politicians who don’t follow ethics rules, some policemen who don’t follow department procedures and some lawyers who get disbarred, some teachers and some administrators are the exception to the effective grading continuum. For the grades to be valid predictors, as research suggests, the vast majority of teachers must follow sound methodology and grading practices in their classrooms.

Teachers and administrators know if you are basing your evaluation of teachers, teaching and learning and public education on standardized test scores you are measuring the wrong thing with the wrong instrument.

Georgia’s reformy leaders continue to ignore this research because it doesn’t fit in with their goals to allow public money to be used for private education and for private gain. It’s pretty inconvenient for their cause so it’s usually just ignored.  They use research only when it can support the implementation of policies that increase the amount of public tax monies available to testing companies, charter schools and the private investors that support them.

Georgia doesn’t spend much on individual teachers. The base salary for a beginning teacher is $33,473 annually and a little under $2,800 per month. Teachers may earn incremental increases every few years for experience and may also earn increases for advanced degrees, as long as those degrees are in their field of teaching assignment.

Without the raises for experience and advanced degrees, it would be safe to assume a teacher with X years of experience might still be earning the same amount as a beginning teacher. It would also seem the removal of those incremental increases would make teaching even less attractive than it already is.

Gov. Deal recently announced 10 percent raises for much of his staff.  These raises come in addition to the performance review incentives, bonuses and other added income for key members of his staff.  The governor failed to mention any research citations that supported the necessity of his decision to increase staff salaries, but did say “they could all make higher salaries in the private sector.”

So, if I am following the governor’s logic here, it’s necessary for him to keep his staff from going to other positions by raising their salaries but it’s OK to cut teacher salaries and expect them to keep working without any hope for an incremental raise that doesn’t even approach the 10 percent given his staff. Curious logic, but here again, it’s not an election year.

Rather than measuring success with standardized test scores, unproven value-added methods and “no excuses” models that ignore the causes and effects of poverty on student learning, Gov. Deal could focus on the things that help teachers make a difference in teaching and learning; cooperation, commitment and a positive school culture.  There are places like that in Georgia, if only he would look.

 

 

Reader Comments 0

315 comments
Mary Brayden Nevil
Mary Brayden Nevil

Let's not forget that this proposed pay cut is a gender issue also.  According to The National Center for Education Statistics (2011-2012)  76. 7% of teachers in Georgia were female. 

Mary Fouraker
Mary Fouraker

I don't even know what to say. . .I am speechless. . .irrational thought masquerading as sound reasoning tends to affect me that way. . .

Dr. K
Dr. K

Has the Higher Ed committee weighed in on this? Basically what Gov. Deal is saying is that the entire Field of Education Graduate School System at all the Board of Regents Universities is of no consequence to teaching and learning. So by eliminating this, do you think anyone will want to pursue an advanced degree? This will reduce the graduate schools by 25% of its student population, literally 1/4 of the grad programs. Ummmm....HELLO??? How many out of work college professors will there be in Georgia? Seriously!!! THAT WOULD BE CATASTROPHIC TO THE BOARD OF REGENTS. I think the legislation would have a tough time making it out of committee...especially when you are looking at reducing 25% of the graduate matriculates in the state.

MaryElizabethSings
MaryElizabethSings

In light of the tragic news about the shooting in the Charleston church this morning, I want to say something to all of those posters and readers who think that black people are inferior human beings because they are not as intelligent as white people or Asian people, or because you think that they do not care enough to help themselves.


The problem in our nation and world is not black people.  The problem is hatred.  Even if what you have written and think about black people were true (which I do not believe is correct from all of my 72 years of observation on this earth), we still need to feel compassion, not contempt and judgment.  Contempt and judgment are our problems. That is why I shared my poem, "Form and Substance," on this blog.  Love is more important than intellect. And, every human being is capable of love, whatever their intellect might be.  Value love over intellect. Who and what do you hate?

popacorn
popacorn

@MaryElizabethSings 

You are the only one to ever use the words 'inferior beings' on this blog. Reading minds again? 72 years of self-delusion is a long, long time, and I am beginning to see that your true self is diametrically and dangerously opposite to the one you try to present here. Please, get a dog.

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@popacorn @MaryElizabethSings 

Those words may not be used outright but they sure are implied, over and over, just on this blog-thread by Lee_CPA (in his discussion of the CPA exam that is "never" passed by blacks and of the "homogeneous society of Africans") and by you (when you so wittily state that "Blacks claim that Pregnancy Tests are biased too)." You need to admit this and move on.


Please, get a cat.  They can't be bullied.

popacorn
popacorn

@OriginalProf

At least you finally quoted correctly. Like pulling teeth. Look up CPA exam pass rates. Maybe then you will understand his point. But probably not. 

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@popacorn @OriginalProf 

Why, bless your heart. I noted that your journal article is 10 years out of date, and also this opening sentence: "There’s very little hard evidence about the numbers of African Americans who are CPAs, even after decades of effort by the AICPA (see “ AICPA Diversity Initiatives ”) and NASBA to bring more minorities into the accounting profession." 

I read the whole thing.  It's as I suspected: the problem has to do with minorities generally, not just African-Americans.  (And since some do pass the exam, according to this, Lee is wrong that "blacks just can't pass the exam.") One of my former colleagues in Accountancy was a member of a minority (not black or Asian) who was active in mentoring junior members of his minority.  So I know there has long been a problem.



popacorn
popacorn

@OriginalProf

AAs have about a 10% first time pass rate on this exam. 10%. At best. In 2000, according to the article, the pass rate was 5%. 5%! And you can scour to your biased heart's delight, and not find your usual invalid excuses for this type of performance. As a CPA, I promise you that Lee realizes that there are SOME blacks who can pass the test. I am sure he know SOME who have. Call the study old, use every trick of deflection in your educator's repertoire, nit-pick with word choice, whatever. Expecting identical cognitive performance across races holds some to an impossible standard, which does more harm than all of the so called racists in the world. 

Lee_CPA2
Lee_CPA2

@MaryElizabethSings


So, is a Clydesdale an "inferior" horse to a Kentucky Thoroughbred?  Will a Shetland Pony ever win the Kentucky Derby?  Can you make a roping horse out of a burro?


As @Popacorn states below, "inferior" is your word, not mine.


The fact remains that politically correct dogma will not allow blacks to be compared unfavorably to whites.  They have created this "everyone is equal" bull crap and are blinded to reality.

-----------------------------------


The church shooting?  Tragic.  What will be even more tragic will be the countless politicians and talking heads who try to may hay over this event.  It's actually already started with the usual idiots calling for more gun control.

Lee_CPA2
Lee_CPA2

@OriginalProf


"Blacks can't pass the CPA exam", and you took that statement LITERALLY???  ROFLMAO


What the article doesn't do is compare pass rates between blacks and whites.   If they did, a predictable pattern would once again emerge.

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@Lee_CPA2 @OriginalProf 

You've claimed this several times on this blog. Given all your other past statements, with citations from White Supremacy journals, yes, I did take you literally.  I still do.

MaryElizabethSings
MaryElizabethSings

@Lee_CPA2 


Reflect here upon, please:


I Corinthians 13: 4 – 10

“Love suffers long, and is kind; love envies not; love vaunts not itself, is not puffed up, does not behave itself unseemly, seeks not her own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil; rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

popacorn
popacorn

@MaryElizabethSings

Kind of narcissistic to think that any being could possibly be 'inferior' to another, don't you think? Interesting that you came up with the wording. 

MaryElizabethSings
MaryElizabethSings

@popacorn 


You are a devious, sick person, imo, popacorn.  Why would you leave out these words which I wrote immediately thereafter?  Because you are not interested in truth. You are only interested in taking away my credibility as best you can, even if what you write about me are lies, because you fear what I stand for, you fear my boldness in speaking truth, and you are envious of me.


My words:  "Even if what you have written and think about black people were true (which I do not believe is correct from all of my 72 years of observation on this earth), we still need to feel compassion, not contempt and judgment." 

Quidocetdiscit
Quidocetdiscit

@Lee_CPA2 


If you did not mean for your statement to be taken at face value, then why did you post it?

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@popacorn @MaryElizabethSings 

Popacorn, just give it up. The entire Jim Crow tradition and its set of laws was based upon the conception that a whole race of beings is "inferior" to the white race. Lee has been using the idea of "inferiority" all along when he compares horse breeds to human beings, as he has often done on this blog. MES is merely resisting this idea that so many others have expressed in this country (the North as well as the South) about black people.


Somehow, yesterday and today of all days it seems especially mean-minded and churlish to post as you and Lee_CPA have done here, when the church massacre just occurred by an unbalanced white supremacist who explicitly said he wanted to kill black people.



popacorn
popacorn

@OriginalProf @MaryElizabethSings

So now both of the Dynamic Duo are on the record for using the word 'inferior'. Of all the people on this blog, just you.  

BTW, a shetland pony is not inferior to Secretariat, just different. You're out of the classroom, gals, all of your attempted guilt trips and thought control get responses, now. 

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@popacorn @OriginalProf @MaryElizabethSings 

The implication is that race-horses are being compared. It's loaded with racial implications in that context.


You are the one attempting "thought-control," with all of  your dime-store analyzing and automatic insulting of other bloggers.  But now I realize that I am feeding the troll.

Lee_CPA2
Lee_CPA2

@OriginalProf

Oh - My - #$*$&* - God.  Can you not comprehend an analogy?  


I use the horse analogy because everyone (I thought) understands that yes, a Kentucky Thoroughbred and a Clydesdale are both horses, but they are different.  Each has particular attributes that gives them an advantage in certain scenarios.


Same with each group of humans.


Keyword is DIFFERENT.  However, it is the politically correct, whose dogma will not allow them to accept the fact that the races are DIFFERENT.

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@Lee_CPA2 @OriginalProf 

Don't you see? In the horse-metaphor you've chosen to illustrate this, you separate the horses into two main groups: small beasts of burden (Shetlands, burros or donkeys--which isn't even a horse) and large draft horses used for labor, or purebred aristocratic thoroughbreds that win the Kentucky Derby. You seem to be implying that black people are similar to the first kind of horses, as whites are to the second.  This does not just imply neutral difference but ranking.

It's insulting to be compared to a burro (donkey), a small pony (Shetland), or a draft horse that labors in teams.
 

Lee_CPA2
Lee_CPA2

@OriginalProf

Okay, white people are Clydesdales and blacks are Kentucky Thoroughbreds.  Happy?  Concept still applies.  They both have certain attributes and are DIFFERENT.


Hell, if that still offends your politically correct sensibilities, substitute Mustang, Quarter Horse, Tennessee Walker, Arabian, etc, etc, etc.   Concept is still the same.

Lee_CPA2
Lee_CPA2

@MaryElizabethSings

Perhaps you should heed your own advice, before you wrote these words to @Popacorn:


"You are a devious, sick person, imo, popacorn."


No, you blog about "evil" Republicans and businessmen and then take offense when someone calls you out on it.  You criticize me for pointing out the differences between the races and how those difference impact performance in an academic setting.  But yet, not one person has provided a single piece of evidence to prove me wrong.

Quidocetdiscit
Quidocetdiscit

@popacorn @Quidocetdiscit


I am well aware of what a hyperbole entails. If I had taught your children English, then they would also understand "context".  In the context of Lee's post, his comment was not couched as a hyperbole. He posted it as if it were factual. And if he WAS aware it was not a true statement and was using it as a hyperbole, then he was being deliberately misleading by posting it is such a way that it was made to appear as a factual statement.


He likely posted it to be inflammatory and too add "weight" to his point.  He did not care if it was a factual statement or not; he just wanted to push his agenda.  I doubt very much he gave much thought to it at all till he was called on it.  


Rather than defend it or try to excuse it, it would be honorable to admit the statement was misleading and erroneous and attempt to be more mindful of one's statements in the future.



atln8tiv
atln8tiv

@popacorn @Quidocetdiscit Someone's got to do some thinking on this blog. May as well be a teacher, since some of the rest of you seem quite challenged to do so.

BeenThere
BeenThere

This will be an unpopular comment; however, how about allowing teachers to teach and pay them for their knowledge?  We pay dentists, doctors, lawyers, and others for their knowledge and experience, so why not teachers?  Teachers pay for their higher degrees out of their own pocket to become better teachers and deserve to receive a pay raise for those degrees.

class80olddog
class80olddog

@BeenThere Are you talking about knowledge and experience or degrees?  I have nothing against paying teachers who have better (useable) knowledge and more experience (that translates into better teaching skills) more.  But the system was set up to pay teachers more just for any advanced degree, which led to a proliferation of online degree programs that give a degree, but not necessarily any improvement in teaching ability.

jerryeads
jerryeads

Somebody sent this to me a bit ago, supposedly a quote from a teacher in Finland:

"We pay teachers like doctors, students enjoy over an hour of recess, and there's no mandatory testing -- the opposite of what America does." In case you haven't heard, Finn students are at the top of the heap of the international testing comparisons. Not comparable to us, you say? Perhaps not. It's pretty clear their elected representatives aren't comparable to ours. Theirs think.

Taxi: One of the best known detractors of public education (Geoffrey Canada) was reported to have spent about $30k/student (we spend about $6-10k), simply expelled students (to be returned to the public school) who scored poorly, and paid himself four hundred K per year. It's a fair bet he's still doing so. Yeehah.


Lee_CPA2
Lee_CPA2

@jerryeads

So, we send several million blacks and third world illegal aliens over to Finland, should do the trick.  They will then be as dysfunctional as we are.

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@Lee_CPA2 @jerryeads 

Or, to put it another way, Finland is an homogeneous society, as we are not, without the racial/ethnic, class, and economic diversity that we have to educate here. So of course it's easier for them to succeed academically.

Lee_CPA2
Lee_CPA2

@OriginalProf


There are many countries in Africa with "homogeneous societies" are there not? 


Finland is a homogeneous society of about 95% Caucasians.  Back when America was top of the charts, we were about 90% Caucasian.


You do the math.... 

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@Lee_CPA2 @OriginalProf 

Oh, c'mon now. Africa may have societies that are racially homogeneous, but they certainly aren't homogeneous in class or in economic status!  Most are quite stratified, with the ruling class on the top and a lot of impoverished people on the bottom.

Starik
Starik

@OriginalProf @Lee_CPA2 I understand that Northern Europe has, because of liberal policies on the admission of refugees, are having trouble educating and assimilating a flood of new immigrants, particularly from Muslim countries. The playing field may even out a bit.

class80olddog
class80olddog

@jerryeads  Take this challenge:  Bring a bunch of Finnish teachers over and let them teach in a failing APS school.  If they are "superstar" teachers (and the teacher really is what makes the difference) you should see test scores (administered and proctored by an outside agency) soar!  But it will not happen, because IT AIN'T THE TEACHER, IT'S THE STUDENT, STUPID.

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@Starik @OriginalProf @Lee_CPA2 

Make that all of Europe, and a few countries in the Mideast. I just read in the NYTimes that nearly 60 million people have been driven from their homes recently by war and persecution. (That's not for economic reasons, which adds more millions.)

Lee_CPA2
Lee_CPA2

@Wascatlady @OriginalProf @Lee_CPA2 @jerryeads

Let's see, in the 60's I was sitting in the same classroom with blacks, had the same teachers as blacks, used the same textbooks as blacks.  So no, I don't see how they were relegated to 2nd or 3rd class status.


And here we are, a half-century later, talking about the black/white "achievement gap".  The same gap that was used to cram integration down America's throat.

popacorn
popacorn

@OriginalProf

Reread for comprehension. Not only NY is mentioned. Far, far more. The Praxis is discussed. You probably haven't heard of that, either. Sometimes it pays to not just skim, but read between the lines, if you can. Higher level stuff. 

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@popacorn 

Read the link you provided. It's about a teacher's licensing exam, the Academic Literacy Skills Test, that's only given in New York.  The question raised by this NYTimes article is whether the test-questions are culturally biased, such as ones about Gertrude Stein's life in Paris. I really don't see how it applies to Georgia.


OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@popacorn @OriginalProf 

I know about Praxis.  And it's only mentioned in one paragraph here.  The focus is on possible racial bias in the licensing tests, such as the ALST that's mainly given in NY. Same issues that have been raised about the SAT test.  But it doesn't mean the exams will be dumbed down, as you suggest. The issue of possible cultural bias in the questions is always a real one that should be considered. Here, as with the SAT, black and Hispanic students with otherwise good grades were scoring badly on the ALST. So take another look at the exam to make the questions more culturally neutral.

Starik
Starik

@OriginalProf @popacorn What, exactly does culturally neutral mean?  Should we consider English teachers (oops, I mean language arts teachers) who conjugate "I am" as "I is, you is, we is" etc as qualified?  What does this do to their students?

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@Starik @OriginalProf @popacorn 

Relating to test questions, it means that they should not assume cultural knowledge that is not generally available to all groups. The example given above about Gertrude Stein's life in Paris assumes that the student knows who she is and what she was doing in Paris. (She was a white experimental writer in the 1920s who was part of a writers circle in Paris.) Hispanic and black students are less likely to be able to identify her. It would be like expecting white students to identify WEB DuBois or Pablo Neruda.


It can be hard to write culturally neutral questions because the test-maker is usually middle-class and white, and doesn't recognize his/her assumptions.

popacorn
popacorn

@OriginalProf

Hope your quick skim caught this nugget:

“Teachers who are not themselves well educated are not going to go on to educate their future students to the levels that we need.”

Do not ask for whom the bell tolls...

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@popacorn @OriginalProf 

Well, it doesn't toll for me. I have a doctorate in the content field I taught for 30+ years. But I do agree with the nugget, and with the effort to raise standards that's described in  your article.

Starik
Starik

@OriginalProf @popacorn Okay, so we respect the culture and language of native Americans.  Do we want to preserve the culture and fractured English of slavery and Jim Crow? Do we be doing any good with that?  Should people, black, Appalachian or whatever learn to speak the language?



Lee_CPA2
Lee_CPA2

@OriginalProf


It's not culturally biased, it's just that blacks cannot pass it.  


Back in the late 90's, they eased off the difficulty and upped the education requirements to receive a CPA license.  You now have to have 25 hours of graduate level accounting to be eligible for a CPA.  Used to get one with Bachelor's degree (plus 2 years public / 5 years industry experience) - that is, if you could pass the exam.

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@Lee_CPA2 @OriginalProf 

I'd like stats to prove that all blacks are unable to pass it. Maybe the ones you know of were unable to.  I also wonder how high the general rate of failure was. Perhaps the exam was so difficult because it assumed knowledge or expertise that was usually acquired with more years of education. (Like giving a Master's exam in a subject to an undergraduate in the field.)

ScienceTeacher671
ScienceTeacher671

@popacorn Georgia already replaced the PRAXIS with the Georgia Assessments for the Certification of Educators (GACE) because too many people failed the PRAXIS.  Old news.

popacorn
popacorn

@OriginalProf @Lee_CPA2

No one ever said ALL blacks are unable to pass. I am by now unfazed by lack of reading comprehension in educators. Again, in the article:

On a common licensing exam called Praxis Core, a new test given in 31 states or jurisdictions that was created to be more rigorous than its predecessor, 55 percent of white candidates taking the test since October 2013 passed the math portion on their first try, according to the preliminary data from the Educational Testing Service, which designed the exam. The passing rate for first-time African-American test takers was 21.5 percent, and for Hispanic test takers, 35 percent. A similar gap was seen on the reading and writing portions.

Starik
Starik

@OriginalProf @Starik @popacorn It would be good to expose them to SAT/New York Times words early - but if the teacher are also unfamiliar with these words?  For poor children the quality of the teaching is extremely important because they can't rely on friends, neighborhoods, parent or reading out of school to expand their vocabulary or polish their accent or grammar.

Lee_CPA2
Lee_CPA2

@OriginalProf


Ah yes, cultural bias.  The standby excuse whenever blacks and hispanics don't do as well as white and asians 


Same with the CPA exam, the Professional Engineering license exam, the police chief exam, the electricians exam, the plumbers exam, the PCAT, MCAT, GMAT and every other exam known to man.  


Funny how they ALL are culturally biased.


Maybe it is something else....

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@Starik @OriginalProf @popacorn 

No, I don't think you understand what is meant by "cultural bias" in testing. It has nothing to do with using the colloquial language of various cultures. It has to do with the subject of the test-questions, and their wording. Is the subject generally known? (Gertrude Stein probably isn't, for she wasn't a mainstream writer.) Are the words generally known? (An example is the use of the word "foyer" in a question.  That is a middle to upper class word that refers to the vestibule or entrance-room of a house. A poorer student who's only lived in apartments likely wouldn't know what it means.)


Btw, to answer your concerns, I believe strongly in the need to educate all minorities in Standard English.  They may speak their community dialect at home, but for their own sakes in the outer world they have to know Standard English.  It does them no favors to let them get by in school with their dialect language.

ScienceTeacher671
ScienceTeacher671

@gactzn2 @ScienceTeacher671 @popacorn


I'm a non-traditional teacher. My degree is in the sciences, not in education, but I had no trouble at all passing the content tests for my field.  


There's more to teaching than knowing the content, but you certainly can't teach it if you don't know it.

popacorn
popacorn

@OriginalProf @popacorn @Lee_CPA2 

Do you see the word 'all' in what he posted? His statement is a generalization, meaning to imply that, as a rule, blacks cannot pass. Like another lame educator here, you are always twisting words to ascribe meaning that one does not intend. Either that, or you just don't get it. 

popacorn
popacorn

@ScienceTeacher671 @gactzn2 @popacorn

Look at the stats presented in the NY Times article. These tests are not that hard, as you mention, yet the fail rate is astronomical. What does this tell you about our teaching candidates? That they have two choices in life, teacher or stay at home mom?

OriginalProf
OriginalProf

@popacorn @OriginalProf @Lee_CPA2 

He states, "it's just that blacks can't pass it." That means "all." Not "some blacks," or even "most blacks."  You're twisting words too, always to excuse, excuse.

gactzn2
gactzn2

@ScienceTeacher671 @popacorn This was also done to accommodate non-traditional teachers who lacked formal education in the field which biases the results in Georgia.  Alternative teacher certification pathways were being promoted at that time.